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	<title>Comments on: Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet</title>
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	<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/</link>
	<description>A weblog of speculation, experience, and the study of religion.</description>
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		<title>By: Wednesday Stuff &#124; creationism</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator>Wednesday Stuff &#124; creationism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In the end, I tend to believe Yahya and his followers that the books support themselves. After all, they admit to me that the foundations (Truth Research Foundation, Science Research Foundation) are supported by contributors. What is there to lose by saying that the books are too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the end, I tend to believe Yahya and his followers that the books support themselves. After all, they admit to me that the foundations (Truth Research Foundation, Science Research Foundation) are supported by contributors. What is there to lose by saying that the books are too?</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-900</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/#comment-900</guid>
		<description>A contact of mine associated with Oktar sent me a reply to some of these points. Among other things, she explained:

- &quot;Turkey in general is cheaper in printing sector.&quot;
- &quot;We do not have any financial support from any other country. But we&#039;d love to, and we would not reject that. People think that Saudi Arabia is behind this. But unfortunately not. They are still not aware of the importance of our intellectual struggle. If they were aware, they would definitely support our methods.&quot;
- &quot;&#039;by the hand of God&#039; means that we are small in number but very influential with the help of God. We believe that this is happening because of our sincere belief in Allah, and we are not expecting any recompense in this world. Bigger religious groups have not achieved this.&quot;
- &quot;In general, our financial accounts have been checked by the official institutions and were cleared several times. Please see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.psychologicalwarfaremethods.com/#29a&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;
- &quot;A few days ago, a school from Florida made a huge book order for their educational curriculum like many others before. So the number does not only include solitary readers but also educational institutions.&quot;
- &quot;In Indonesia, the president is recommending that his people read Harun Yahya books.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A contact of mine associated with Oktar sent me a reply to some of these points. Among other things, she explained:</p>
<p>- &#8220;Turkey in general is cheaper in printing sector.&#8221;<br />
- &#8220;We do not have any financial support from any other country. But we&#8217;d love to, and we would not reject that. People think that Saudi Arabia is behind this. But unfortunately not. They are still not aware of the importance of our intellectual struggle. If they were aware, they would definitely support our methods.&#8221;<br />
- &#8220;&#8216;by the hand of God&#8217; means that we are small in number but very influential with the help of God. We believe that this is happening because of our sincere belief in Allah, and we are not expecting any recompense in this world. Bigger religious groups have not achieved this.&#8221;<br />
- &#8220;In general, our financial accounts have been checked by the official institutions and were cleared several times. Please see <a href="http://www.psychologicalwarfaremethods.com/#29a" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a>.&#8221;<br />
- &#8220;A few days ago, a school from Florida made a huge book order for their educational curriculum like many others before. So the number does not only include solitary readers but also educational institutions.&#8221;<br />
- &#8220;In Indonesia, the president is recommending that his people read Harun Yahya books.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you, by the way, for checking back and commenting. Your remarks have pushed me to phrase certain things more carefully in an upcoming article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, by the way, for checking back and commenting. Your remarks have pushed me to phrase certain things more carefully in an upcoming article.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-874</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/#comment-874</guid>
		<description>I agree that, until a third-party accounting can be made, there is reason not to trust Global Publishing&#039;s figures. In fact, when I met with the director of GP in Istanbul, he told me that the free &lt;em&gt;Atlas&lt;/em&gt;es were paid for &quot;by the hand of God&quot;—presumably, by outside financial backing. In contrast, Oktar himself and his close associates (among whom that director did not seem to be one), they say that the books can be sold inexpensively or given away because no money is taken from the royalties. This is also what sympathetic booksellers tell me when I ask how the books are so inexpensive. Once again, only a third-party audit could confirm this.

Friends of mine have confirmed that the books are clearly sold at below production costs also. But whether the books are subsidized or not doesn&#039;t change the fact of their importance.

But one way or another, the books are in generous circulation. They are plentiful in Islamic bookstores around the world. The &lt;em&gt;Atlas of Creation&lt;/em&gt; is clearly at the rhetorical center of Oktar&#039;s recent campaigns, suggesting that he puts a great deal of emphasis on the power of print. There are dramatized photos of Oktar writing and reading his books, but I&#039;ve yet to see one of him proudly perusing his website. This isn&#039;t to say that the web isn&#039;t an extremely important part of his efforts—your paper does a fantastic job of showing that it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that, until a third-party accounting can be made, there is reason not to trust Global Publishing&#8217;s figures. In fact, when I met with the director of GP in Istanbul, he told me that the free <em>Atlas</em>es were paid for &#8220;by the hand of God&#8221;—presumably, by outside financial backing. In contrast, Oktar himself and his close associates (among whom that director did not seem to be one), they say that the books can be sold inexpensively or given away because no money is taken from the royalties. This is also what sympathetic booksellers tell me when I ask how the books are so inexpensive. Once again, only a third-party audit could confirm this.</p>
<p>Friends of mine have confirmed that the books are clearly sold at below production costs also. But whether the books are subsidized or not doesn&#8217;t change the fact of their importance.</p>
<p>But one way or another, the books are in generous circulation. They are plentiful in Islamic bookstores around the world. The <em>Atlas of Creation</em> is clearly at the rhetorical center of Oktar&#8217;s recent campaigns, suggesting that he puts a great deal of emphasis on the power of print. There are dramatized photos of Oktar writing and reading his books, but I&#8217;ve yet to see one of him proudly perusing his website. This isn&#8217;t to say that the web isn&#8217;t an extremely important part of his efforts—your paper does a fantastic job of showing that it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet : TRANSATLANTIC FORUM</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-873</link>
		<dc:creator>Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet : TRANSATLANTIC FORUM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/#comment-873</guid>
		<description>[...] für Adnan Oktar das Internet so wichtig ist wie ich behaupte. Wir diskutieren dass beim ihm im Ruderboot.   Bookmark [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] für Adnan Oktar das Internet so wichtig ist wie ich behaupte. Wir diskutieren dass beim ihm im Ruderboot.   Bookmark [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Riexinger</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-872</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Riexinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/#comment-872</guid>
		<description>Well I doubt both numbers. Who should by them when he sells a quarter of a million on his home market? Only a few books have been translated in the other major languages of the Islamic World yet. Much of the material is in Western languages but the Muslim population is rather tiny, and at least in Europe avid book readers are an exception. Libraries usually do not buy such stuff either.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps Yahya’s most important outreach effort (see, for instance, how people describe him in cursory news articles) is through the Atlas of Creation, a massive book which he physically sent to thousands (I’m told over 150,000) for free around the world. This is obviously a massively expensive operation, and GP tells me that the book sales are considerable enough to cover the costs for it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think this assumption is problematic too. The books are printed on art paper and everybody not affilated to Harun Yahya&#039;s following agrees that they are sold at a price below the production costs. 

For example, &quot;Yahudilik ve Masonluk&quot; (Judaism and freemasonry) at the moment his bestseller in Turkey is sold for YTL 22,-, whereas Iletisim, one of Turkey&#039;s most renowned publishing houses sells Orhan Pamuk&#039;s &quot;Kar&quot; (Snow) on average paper quality and in small size for the same price. This seems also to be the standard price for  historical studies of about 400 pp. The paperback version of the volume &quot;Sol&quot; (The Left&quot;) in the internationally acclaimed series on political thought in modern Turkey is sold for YTL 66,- (almost 1400 pp but a larger format). Just to give an idea about book prices in Turkey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I doubt both numbers. Who should by them when he sells a quarter of a million on his home market? Only a few books have been translated in the other major languages of the Islamic World yet. Much of the material is in Western languages but the Muslim population is rather tiny, and at least in Europe avid book readers are an exception. Libraries usually do not buy such stuff either.</p>
<blockquote><p>Perhaps Yahya’s most important outreach effort (see, for instance, how people describe him in cursory news articles) is through the Atlas of Creation, a massive book which he physically sent to thousands (I’m told over 150,000) for free around the world. This is obviously a massively expensive operation, and GP tells me that the book sales are considerable enough to cover the costs for it.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think this assumption is problematic too. The books are printed on art paper and everybody not affilated to Harun Yahya&#8217;s following agrees that they are sold at a price below the production costs. </p>
<p>For example, &#8220;Yahudilik ve Masonluk&#8221; (Judaism and freemasonry) at the moment his bestseller in Turkey is sold for YTL 22,-, whereas Iletisim, one of Turkey&#8217;s most renowned publishing houses sells Orhan Pamuk&#8217;s &#8220;Kar&#8221; (Snow) on average paper quality and in small size for the same price. This seems also to be the standard price for  historical studies of about 400 pp. The paperback version of the volume &#8220;Sol&#8221; (The Left&#8221;) in the internationally acclaimed series on political thought in modern Turkey is sold for YTL 66,- (almost 1400 pp but a larger format). Just to give an idea about book prices in Turkey.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-864</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was told that the average was 18 million per year, as I said in a comment above. Does this mean that sales went down 2 million this year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was told that the average was 18 million per year, as I said in a comment above. Does this mean that sales went down 2 million this year?</p>
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		<title>By: Giannileone</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-862</link>
		<dc:creator>Giannileone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As far as I know about the last numbers, some 16 millions books of Harun Yahya were sold worldwide this year</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I know about the last numbers, some 16 millions books of Harun Yahya were sold worldwide this year</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-852</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.therowboat.com/2008/12/propagating-islamic-creationism-on-the-internet/#comment-852</guid>
		<description>Yes — not so much contradiction as where to place the emphasis. It is true, all the books are available for download on the internet. But Global Publishing, the company that oversees the production of all the media materials, says this hasn&#039;t affected sales. (The owner of an Islamic bookstore I talked to in Istanbul disagreed.) My sources at GP tell me that they sell about 18 million books per year, and only a about a quarter million of those are in Turkey. But still that&#039;s enough to maintain a 30-member call center in Istanbul to receive domestic orders.

In an upcoming article, I will emphasize the aesthetic impact of the books, which often have dramatic illustrations and full color, glossy pages. Also, a growing part of Yahya&#039;s effort involves traveling exhibitions of fossils, often invited by Muslim student societies in Western universities.

Perhaps Yahya&#039;s most important outreach effort (see, for instance, how people describe him in cursory news articles) is through the &lt;em&gt;Atlas of Creation&lt;/em&gt;, a massive book which he physically sent to thousands (I&#039;m told over 150,000) for free around the world. This is obviously a massively expensive operation, and GP tells me that the book sales are considerable enough to cover the costs for it.

I think you&#039;re right to point out the online side of his effort, which is very considerable—and in fact your findings are of great use to me. But for quite some time Yahya has made his presence felt strongly in Islamic bookstores and, most recently, by mailing copies of the &lt;em&gt;Atlas&lt;/em&gt; to lots and lots of influential people who would otherwise never know about him or bother to find him on the internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes — not so much contradiction as where to place the emphasis. It is true, all the books are available for download on the internet. But Global Publishing, the company that oversees the production of all the media materials, says this hasn&#8217;t affected sales. (The owner of an Islamic bookstore I talked to in Istanbul disagreed.) My sources at GP tell me that they sell about 18 million books per year, and only a about a quarter million of those are in Turkey. But still that&#8217;s enough to maintain a 30-member call center in Istanbul to receive domestic orders.</p>
<p>In an upcoming article, I will emphasize the aesthetic impact of the books, which often have dramatic illustrations and full color, glossy pages. Also, a growing part of Yahya&#8217;s effort involves traveling exhibitions of fossils, often invited by Muslim student societies in Western universities.</p>
<p>Perhaps Yahya&#8217;s most important outreach effort (see, for instance, how people describe him in cursory news articles) is through the <em>Atlas of Creation</em>, a massive book which he physically sent to thousands (I&#8217;m told over 150,000) for free around the world. This is obviously a massively expensive operation, and GP tells me that the book sales are considerable enough to cover the costs for it.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right to point out the online side of his effort, which is very considerable—and in fact your findings are of great use to me. But for quite some time Yahya has made his presence felt strongly in Islamic bookstores and, most recently, by mailing copies of the <em>Atlas</em> to lots and lots of influential people who would otherwise never know about him or bother to find him on the internet.</p>
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